Re: My Speculations of Population and what TC can do for the future.

Cergis Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:30 am

You are quite right diablo

**[Redacted]** Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:55 am

DIABLO258 wrote:I am going to come out and say right now, that a map change this early will most certainly kill off what population we could get, or the little we have left. I understand that C18 is out dated and not very pretty. But the last time I checked, every single map change we have had took us literally no where. C45 gained us a good pop for the first few days. Then it went back to 6-10 players or less.

What we need to do is focus on making the RP more enjoyable, and not focus on how the map looks and feels. C18 gives you an eerie feeling if you truly don't know what is around the corner. The problem with TC is that a good majority of the regulars are all Staff members. Those staff members have more than one character, and I can guarantee you the majority of the staff has more than one IMPORTANT character. Most likely they vary from faction to faction.

This to me is a root problem. Not only do Staff members have this though, no.. Regulars have Rebels, CCA, CWU, and so on. As far as I can tell, I only have one outlook on the real world. I only have one way to tell what is actually going on in the world and that is through my eyes and mine alone. You see, I think the reason the RP dries out after so long is because people have the option to say "Meh this RP is boring, i'm gonna switch to CCA and see whats up." instead what they should be doing is focusing on one character. Making that character what you want that character to be. That character should be your only outlook on C18. If you have the ability to see and learn what is happening on the other side of the map by simply clicking a button, well who cares what happens next? You know both sides, and whether you like it or not, that will effect your other characters and how their story plays out.

I see it to often. Char switching over and over again. Having more than one character gives you the ability to cheat and if you dont cheat, you get bored.

What I am suggesting is that we limit the amount of characters, instead of changing the map, or just adding on MORE addons to an already broken system. It seems like no matter what we do, we always end up in the same hole as before. Why? Because the way we play is broken and needs to be fixed. Maybe the amount of characters is not the fix TC needs, but I can most certainly tell you a new map will not help. I am suggesting we tweak the game play, instead of the scenery.

Maybe only allowing 1-2 characters is a good idea because it would keep players confined to one character. Each character is run by a different person. You would never meet two important characters run by the same player. The only way to find out what the other factions plans are is to go and start asking around, instead of just switching characters. Each character has different knowledge, instead of the player knowing and being able to Meta easily. No more large groups made up of 3-4 players. Its dumb in my opinion, and I think a limit to the amount of characters you have is a much better idea than a new map. Maybe its not the best idea, but its better than a new map.

If you think about it, if we only had one character per player, we would have a major shortage on characters for different factions, like Loyalists or CWU. Seems like a problem right? Well lets look at real life and how it works. There seems to be one person for each job. So, if we have CCA and Rebels, but no CWU, well who gets it? How about the one person that wants it? You know, someone willing to do the job instead of just having he faction to say they have the faction or just feel some kind of personal gain from it. If no one uses that faction, someone will want it. Scarcity forces trade off, and people want what very few people have. If a new player notices that no one is a Vort, or a CWU, they may try to become one of those. Then that character is locked to that, and now, that player will be forever known as that faction. They will be the person you go to for what ever service they can provide. If they get bored, kill the character. If your character dies, it will impact other players heavily if your character was important like CWU. Who will be a CWU now? Someone will have to step up... Maybe a second new player?

Just think about your first character. What if every character was like that. You were dedicated, you cared, you loved, and you lost, because it is all you had. But now you have more than one. More than one character needing dedication, care, love, and an ending. But it seems that players here don't want that. They want more than one character, so they can experience all of the RP available to them at any given time, instead of working your way towards RP specific areas, you can just click a button.

I remember a time when I had to choose. Either Rebel, or CCA. No turning back. All I had was my John Partell, and he chose the CCA. I went to the highest rank I could, because I loved that character and never wanted to play any other. But unfortunately, I fell into the trap of not wanting it to end. So to fill the gap of that amazing new RP I once had, I created a new character on top of John. Eventually I killed them both (Except APEX. John is APEX, but I like to think they are two different people on the inside) because the gap remained. Clearly, the gap is there for a lot of you. I think you need to get attached to one character. Your character. Your one life, your one chance to live in this hell of a city. One chance. If you screw up your characters life and they die, start over. That is what Serious RP used to be. Now, I don't really know what it is. Its filled with map changes, Faction specific days, and extremely off cannon CCA, Rebels, and an uncountable amount of addons and plugins.

People claim to love TC for its amazing RP. Imagine if you put all the RP skill that you spread unto each of your characters, onto one character. Imagine if everyone speant countless hours on one character. Each character battle would be a clash of the titans, the truly better character and Rp'er would come out on top. If we put all of our focus into one character, we all will bring something special to the table. Not just another lolwebul, idiot RCT, or just some quickly whipped up Citizen who is "bad ass" because they are psycho and ready to kill. We need dedication and expectations from characters. We cannot let one person have more power than the next because they have more characters. Its idiotic to me, and the one thing you all focus on is scenery.

We don't need a new map.

I hope you all understand what I am saying here.

EDIT: And if you think that you would get bored with the one character you have, well maybe that character is also bored with his/her life. Suicide is an option to start over, duh.

EDIT 2: Just to clarify, this is not a plan. I am just stating my opinions on the matter of a new map, and how there are more important things to think about.

Now I know this is an opinion and all, but seriously, I don't think limiting characters is going to bring in population. This is a matter of population, we have something vital that keeps people interested, players all getting together, amazing players at that and rping. Simply confining a person to their one and only character is insanity. The whole point of being able to make new characters in rp is to learn and experience all the aspects of rp so that you can decide on what you wish to focus on as a main area. If you love CCA, then that will most likely be your strongest character as you will most likely spend the most time on that faction. If you enjoy the simplistic reality of the citizen and open minded freedom than you will play on the citizen, if you enjoy intensity and thrilling fights and planning you will look to become a rebel and play on that. I can guarantee to any of you, confining a player in anyway to anything is what will snipe RP right in the dome and kill it. Think about it, how amazing was RP for those of you who remember the glory days of C18?

There was more freedom to the player and things flowed a lot better, little conflict which was managed. We decided that C18 was getting boring and we all agreed to move to C45, once we got there the structural layout was different and needed a change in the way RP worked. I think people started to get a little carried away at this point as the map was new and fresh and such and a little out of order, but we did get it structured nicely and established some good grounds, we were back rping and with a nice steady population still. Things like rogues started to get a little out of hand with Stinger and such, so what? Remove rogues? Now I know this is a really heat ridden topic for some, but TC had rogues and they were working out nicely people were happy, they were extremely misinterpreted by many and only some really knew how they were. Sure, many people wanted them, but they weren't necessarily overly mad or wanting them THAT badly and when you got to meet one, it was truly an epic diversity of character. I can say yeah, at some points they were a little overpowered but for the most part, not really. The point is, once they were removed with little consent, people such as Gremnkai were angered and thrown off. They are considered a type of character, and a character that someone enjoyed playing and came on the server to play as. RP later on began to diminish with a host of other things, as I have stated in the reason TC died off before thread, we slowly corroded with characters forgetting what it meant to rp, because of the amount we had? No, because we were worrying about the next confinement, people started getting in extensive arguments over things because they REALLY started worrying about their characters. The thing is, people aren't going to be able to consistently play on each one of their characters, they usually pick a few to play on for a while, then move on to new ones, if they aren't that complex a player who really doesn't have time for all these chars, they just won't make any more characters. If people want to rp, than we should stop worrying so much about all this OOC stuff and just get in, and critically think about making IC a better place. Once we are all together doing things, RP will spark and it will get deep, immersive and amazing just like before. I'm not trying to call you out or anything here Diablo, but just because you only had 2-4 characters, doesn't mean other people will want to, it's just how people work we are all versatile. I do respect your amount of characters and RP style, but I don't think it is what we all need.

What we really need to focus on is population, just all getting on and rping together, character switching will always be a reoccurring thing, we do have rules which have been clearly layed out behind character switching and it's pretty obvious when you are getting chased by a bunch of CCA, they let of for a few minutes and you switch or something for example. We just have to enforce our rules, not take the peoples chars away from them. That's like me giving you a bunch of action figures and saying you can play with them if you play nicely and take care of them, and when I see you rough housing and treating them wrong because things like that happen, I take them away from you and only give you one so you can treat it better since you now know the value of it. Basically that's going to inspire people to just not even bother, they will get bored, as you've said. Once their one cool char dies, they will have nothing to fall back on like they should. As for the map change, it really has nothing to do with keeping RP in check in general, it has to do with population and getting newcomers to want to join, there has been a large amount of votes towards it, and I do thank each and everyone of you who made your sincere reasons as to why you voted. Nice to see you aren't lazy or something or are just blindly voting.

I think we should focus on what the community wants, if they want addons for specific legitimate reasons, give them to them. Addons honestly are pretty harmless if they are adding something beneficial to the game and to RP. Taking away from something that is good with them is almost a downgrade, CSS weapons sure, take those away, they aren't really all that cannon per se or needed. Beta weapons however, we could really use them for various reasons. Taking away anything from anybody when it can easily be corrected and is not directly defying a rule that is not being enforced correctly is not really the way to go. So I guess all of this is just my opinion. Bottom line, to fix rp, you must simply be rping with each other. We may not realize it, but each time we are away from the game, we forget a little bit about how to RP sufficiently, only way to fix that is to all get in the game together. When you rapidly take something away from someone, they become confused and it is a large impact on them and their surroundings, but, if you gradually work it something, try to fix it and if it doesn't work, gradually take it away like rehab, the effect is a lot more harmless and sometimes even MORE beneficial than before. We do need a new map, because it is what newcomers will look for, and because 11/2 5 of which stated a legitimate reason as to why they want to move wish to do so.

**DIABLO258** Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:32 am

You don't understand what I am saying, Holler. What the community wants is not always what the community needs.

A new map is what you all want, but will it fix things? Will it truly be that miracle that fixes what you think it will? Or will we end up right back where we started?

You see, a map change is big. You cant just switch back if it doesn't work. You need a story to follow through with the map change, and if you just void that, well shit man. That's lame as hell. As for rouges, no. I am not letting rouges come back until everyone is off onto what ever community Bravo makes in the future. Rouges were something special at a time, because they were rare. Noob is the only person who should have had a rouge, because he is the only one who really used it correctly, even then I still didn't like rouges. Majorly off cannon. So, where you were going with that one, no.

So you think a map will fix that? Everyone wants a new map? Clearly the votes are in order, but what happened last time? Did we lose a population on C45? How about C08? What about those other strange maps we tried? No? It didnt work? Well then, I guess we can see where that one goes.

You don't understand what I am getting at. The reason the population is low is because people don't see a reason to stay. Its not the map. If it were the map, C45 would have worked. Just because people are flocking to I17 doesn't mean its right. It may be nice for a time, but how long until people did what we did and start saying "Man I really want to go back to C18, you know, our home?"

My idea was not a "Lets do this instead of a map change", no, it was a "Hey we should focus on more important shit, like game mechanics and what people don't like about them" IE; Rolling, P2L, D6, Characters, PK's, shit like that. You can change the map all you want, but when you start to play you will quickly realize there is no difference from the feeling in C18 than there is in I17. There may be a left turn instead of a right turn, but is that really what you think will change the RP? I've been in this game for over a year. I know what wont work. I dont know what will exactly, but maps, guys, we've been through this before! It doesnt work! Why are we constantly going back to doing the same thing as before? Its not going to work! My idea isn't insanity. The map change is. Doing the same thing expecting different results? Seriously? We should focus on the game itself, not our surroundings. Once we perfect the RP, then we can start to poke at the map. I mean, it will be the same characters as before, there will be no difference at all other than new rebel bases and secret areas that CCA don't know about for some reason, even though they made the choice to go there. CCA arnt stupid, if anything, they should occupy those secret areas. Not rebels.

If I have a broken leg, I can go to New York and think things will be better. But when I get there, my leg will still be broken. Nothing will really change. I'll just be in New York.

Do you see what I mean? Its not my character idea that I am pushing. I am pushing that we think about other shit, instead of the same damn thing over and over again.

We are not changing maps until Bravo and I think we are ready too.

PS: If people keep donating, TC can remain alive for a longer time. Once the money is gone, I cannot hold a server anymore. At that point, Bravo will take command and use a different forum. Then you wont have to deal with my opinions. You can have your rouges and new maps. But I will warn you. Its not going to help. Either you change how the game plays and you make things more interesting from the core of ClockWork. Or you remain with 5-10 players.

PSS: And for anyone thinking "Well its the same as when you started playing DIABLO, and you loved it so much, so why is it so bad now?" thats because TC has done some pretty strange stuff to HL2RP. All of these addons, all of these rules, all of these UNWRITTEN RULES, all of these new maps, all of these new ranks, new weapons. Its not the same as when I started. Really, its not. You guys do not see what I saw. And that is a real shame. Don't forget, what the community wanted, is what killed TC the first time. The population was low then, and its low now because nothing has changed within TC's gameplay mechanics.

PSS: And how could limiting characters NOT bring in population? If we made everyone in TC stick to one character, do you know how many open positions in different factions there would be? A shit ton! We would have hardly any CCA if half took off for Rebels! We would have no CWU! Or Vorts! Someone has to be one of those factions? Who else will take them other than new players? If a new player sees an open spot, a reason to stay, the chances they will are higher. That is how it will bring new players. But that is just one small change. Literally its a click away. If its bad, we can change it back without hassle. Not so much with maps.

**[Redacted]** Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:21 pm

DIABLO258 wrote:You don't understand what I am saying, Holler. What the community wants is not always what the community needs.

A new map is what you all want, but will it fix things? Will it truly be that miracle that fixes what you think it will? Or will we end up right back where we started?

You see, a map change is big. You cant just switch back if it doesn't work. You need a story to follow through with the map change, and if you just void that, well shit man. That's lame as hell. As for rouges, no. I am not letting rouges come back until everyone is off onto what ever community Bravo makes in the future. Rouges were something special at a time, because they were rare. Noob is the only person who should have had a rouge, because he is the only one who really used it correctly, even then I still didn't like rouges. Majorly off cannon. So, where you were going with that one, no.

So you think a map will fix that? Everyone wants a new map? Clearly the votes are in order, but what happened last time? Did we lose a population on C45? How about C08? What about those other strange maps we tried? No? It didnt work? Well then, I guess we can see where that one goes.

You don't understand what I am getting at. The reason the population is low is because people don't see a reason to stay. Its not the map. If it were the map, C45 would have worked. Just because people are flocking to I17 doesn't mean its right. It may be nice for a time, but how long until people did what we did and start saying "Man I really want to go back to C18, you know, our home?"

My idea was not a "Lets do this instead of a map change", no, it was a "Hey we should focus on more important shit, like game mechanics and what people don't like about them" IE; Rolling, P2L, D6, Characters, PK's, shit like that. You can change the map all you want, but when you start to play you will quickly realize there is no difference from the feeling in C18 than there is in I17. There may be a left turn instead of a right turn, but is that really what you think will change the RP? I've been in this game for over a year. I know what wont work. I dont know what will exactly, but maps, guys, we've been through this before! It doesnt work! Why are we constantly going back to doing the same thing as before? Its not going to work! My idea isn't insanity. The map change is. Doing the same thing expecting different results? Seriously? We should focus on the game itself, not our surroundings. Once we perfect the RP, then we can start to poke at the map. I mean, it will be the same characters as before, there will be no difference at all other than new rebel bases and secret areas that CCA don't know about for some reason, even though they made the choice to go there. CCA arnt stupid, if anything, they should occupy those secret areas. Not rebels.

If I have a broken leg, I can go to New York and think things will be better. But when I get there, my leg will still be broken. Nothing will really change. I'll just be in New York.

Do you see what I mean? Its not my character idea that I am pushing. I am pushing that we think about other shit, instead of the same damn thing over and over again.

We are not changing maps until Bravo and I think we are ready too.

PS: If people keep donating, TC can remain alive for a longer time. Once the money is gone, I cannot hold a server anymore. At that point, Bravo will take command and use a different forum. Then you wont have to deal with my opinions. You can have your rouges and new maps. But I will warn you. Its not going to help. Either you change how the game plays and you make things more interesting from the core of ClockWork. Or you remain with 5-10 players.

PSS: And for anyone thinking "Well its the same as when you started playing DIABLO, and you loved it so much, so why is it so bad now?" thats because TC has done some pretty strange stuff to HL2RP. All of these addons, all of these rules, all of these UNWRITTEN RULES, all of these new maps, all of these new ranks, new weapons. Its not the same as when I started. Really, its not. You guys do not see what I saw. And that is a real shame. Don't forget, what the community wanted, is what killed TC the first time. The population was low then, and its low now because nothing has changed within TC's gameplay mechanics.

PSS: And how could limiting characters NOT bring in population? If we made everyone in TC stick to one character, do you know how many open positions in different factions there would be? A shit ton! We would have hardly any CCA if half took off for Rebels! We would have no CWU! Or Vorts! Someone has to be one of those factions? Who else will take them other than new players? If a new player sees an open spot, a reason to stay, the chances they will are higher. That is how it will bring new players. But that is just one small change. Literally its a click away. If its bad, we can change it back without hassle. Not so much with maps.

Ok, all that said, I still don't get why a character confinement will help, what I said was it will be insanity because it will, yeah, maybe it will leave slots open for population to take, but really, what population are we getting? Another thing is, slots will then have a chance of being overfilled by players who tend to enjoy one faction more than the other. That's the problem. Let's just face it, not everybody is the same and I can guarantee that most people will not like it, including me. And another thing, we've always had to work on our structure and rules but the thing is, we had it right once, all this OOC confinement and unnecessary limiting of players, as I stating numerous times in my argument is what picked away at it along with immersion. I didn't once say that what the community wants is what it needs, what the community needs though when they are all voting for something is what they want, sure, we've switched to maps before, really though, they were working. C45 was working fine and everything was normal, all of a sudden, things start shaking down and people are getting mad because things get rapidly removed instead of worked at to be fixed and then what? 0 population. We didn't even really want to go to C08, that was pretty much forced upon us. You want to know why the rules diminished? It was because everybody was so focused on things being taken away all the time, trying to think of things to add to substitute that they degraded and corroded.

Then all these new random rules and sectioned off areas when the map is already really small, it threw us off. If I go to new York with my broken leg, yeah it's still broken but new York is still a nice place and my leg is going to heal eventually, I'd rather be out and about than at my house. I can still walk, and still need to walk. You want to know why my leg is broken? It was a function in my body that was rapidly taken away from me, but I can still try to fix it, if I don't it will just get worse.
Staying in C18 or I17 is not going to help RP per se, but that was never my initial statement, it was to bring in new comers who, in the new age of rp are on this new map and enjoy it rather than a 15 years ago one that they've been on a million times before. I am saying times are changing and that it's time we just move to that map, work out our RP there, maybe not right away, but eventually we should and people agree with me. I may have not been in the RP business as long as you Diablo, but I still know what I'm saying here. Where I was going with the rogues was not nowhere, it was an example of confinement and being stripped too quickly instead of worked at, I'm not here to talk about rogues I am here to talk about the future of TC. It's funny because, the only reason why we lost population at C45 wasn't the map, not because we wanted to move there. It was confinement that corroded the way everybody played and ate away at the structure of TC.

C45 did work actually, for a long amount of time, it's the reason why Dark, Masey, Slash and a bunch of other regulars/ staff are even here, C45 wasn't a problem and neither are healthy map changes, they shouldn't even matter, they are just maps people want to go to. If you want to work on RP elements you have to actually get in the game and rp, not wait for population to spark, YOU as the people are population. We have all the old rules in play, they worked at one time, and they still can work if people just use them and get in the game, why do you think population peaks sometimes? People get in the game simple as that, we all know how to RP fairly well all together wise, but once we really get down to business and get serious, everything unfolds into this amazing RP. If you didn't want to focus on confining people to one character instead of a map change and work on mechanical shit, you wouldn't have said the map change is useless and we don't need it. Well, the only way to work on our system is to get working on it instead of making these large paragraph after paragraph arguments, I've already came up with a ton of ways to work on them, hence why I said in the reason TC crumbled thread or whatever what we should do. I also don't get why the map change is insanity, because one, not to be rude or anything, I know you used to work a lot behind the scenes of TC which I highly appreciate, but you weren't exactly on that much before to even see what I'm talking about. 2 the reason we even went back is because we were forced over to City 08 which was crappy, so why go back to C45 again? 3 Once we got back to C18, people just were getting annoyed with all this forced map changing so they just sort of let off after a while, then we died. I can assure that limiting characters will not open up positions, it will rather hinder them, the person will have to make a difficult choice of whether or not which character to be, etc. They will get bored and fast. Oh, and the hassle with the idea being not the same as maps is pretty false as we will have all the propdata from before, so it won't matter if we have to.

It can be misleading when a democratic community has to rely on two guys, (no offense to either of you, I understand how decision making works, I just feel you could make better ones) to decide when they feel it's okay to do something just because they think it's not right with little evidence. Voting is for the harmless things that the community wants to benefit off of, IE: The map. Yeah ok, we have to work on certain areas of RP, we get that, but seriously, how do you expect to work on them if nobody will get on? RP structure handling should be the staff's problem not theirs sure. Bottom line is, as I have stated, we need population to support RP just as much as we need RP to support population, what came first the chicken or the egg? We really need to just get in a group chat (As many staff as possible with open arms to ideas and such because we need to be more equal as contributors) and start laying down some rules, either enforcing them from the C18 glory days or changing them and enforcing them the same way, but for a more beneficial cause. The mechanics are always here to work with. Innovation requires taking risks. Our mistakes from the past are quite clear, we need to learn from them. We need to discuss what needs to be fixed and enforced and what needs to be changed, but not removed.

I say, we pick a set, time, get together and talk, all at the same time, Diablo or General or somebody in the staff, should be typing an organised set of rules/editing the existing ones and revamping them and then we post them for all members to see.
And we also announce it in the TC group on steam.

**DIABLO258** Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:23 am

I think you are still missing the point. No new map until we have a stable population. In order to get a population, we need to find out what is moving people away. Its not C18, we have had a full server before. But most do not come back, why? We don't know. We cant just wait for a spark, so we should do something. We can't just change the map, because it wont do anything for us. And plus, Masey turned on us for no reason. So we gained 2 people from C45. Woo hoo.

People like TC because our RP is good, not because the map needs to be fun. C18 is fine as it is. We do not need to update to what everyone else thinks is great, because in a month or so we will want to go back to "our home" just like before. Its a waste of time.

As for confinement on C45, what are you talking about? The only place that was off limits was the Sanctuary. Which I am pretty sure blew up because people thought it was off cannon. Not to mention rouges have already been solved. We are not having them, so stop bringing them up.

We need to focus on things other than maps, addons, and plugins for once. The future of TC is at stake, and the last few times we changed maps we gained NOTHING but a couple (2) staff members. Every choice you make has some kind of trade off, and a new map will most likely attract a new set of players who enjoy I17, then they will leave for the same reason the people who like C18 left. Your trade off is a new map, for a new set of people who will act like the old set of people. People don't change, they just get older. Maps dont really matter, as long as they are built to last. C18 has been used for years. Before I joined DA it was being used. Hell. 5 years ago it was being used. And its still a very common map. Why? Because if you use it properly it is incredibly fun and challenging. Why isnt it fun anymore? Because we changed ClockWork so much during the time of "Polls that could change the world", that it ruined how you were meant to play RP on C18. Simply blaming the map for problems WE created, is not going to get you a population.

I am taking charge and making decisions. I am trying to convince you that you are about to make a bad decision. Just because everyone wants something, doesn't mean its great. It means that the hype train has been built up for it, and people are following you because they trust you. I don't want to see that trust go to waist, so lets stop trying to fix what's not broken. Lets try to fix what is! And by that I mean how the game is meant to be played, rather than how we want to play it. You can't change HL2 and add rouges, or Beta weapons, or CSS weapons, or new CCA skins, psychotic characters that ICly would have been killed in the 7 hour war, pussy CCA units, pussy Rebels, any character that thinks they shouldn't die, cheaters, Administrators who abuse powers, asspullers, minges, how to use your character and how to RP correctly, I can go on all night and day if I want to. But I don't. We should play HL2RP as if it were HL2. Not our own creation. Sure we can add to it, but only if need be. The things we have done to ClockWork seemed fun at the time, but the long term effects are taking a toll on our population, and you know it. I think my message is getting clearer to you. If not, I honestly don't know what to say other than: We screwed up. Not the map. Stop blaming things other than yourself. We are the problem. We changed ClockWork just a tad to much. Instead of realizing that we are wrong, we keep convincing ourselfs that the game is wrong.

**[Redacted]** Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:00 am

I'm actually far from missing the point, the map change is h.a.r.m.l.e.s.s I realize RP needs to be worked on who doesn't? Me getting the point is quite prevalent in the entirety of my posts. If people don't like I17 who actually pay attention which is pretty much everybody, they would have agreed with you and bravo that we don't need it, or don't want it for that matter. This community is so diplomatic, people aren't regulars here to have stuff they don't want in the server, and the only reason they leave, is when the stuff they don't want stays or the stuff they do, leaves. I actually just made a rules thread and discussion which I will be more heavily cracking down on for now on. I am saying people don't even join at all, they used to, regulars join for RP quality, because they love to stay and play, new comers join because of what they see on the outside, IE: Player capacity ratio, ranking and ping. People trust me, because they feel I am making a good decision here, it is frankly the most harmless thing ever. As for the shit we add in, we barely change anything at all too too drastically along the lines of HL2lore or internal HL2 lore at that (Things which were going on before that you were never part of), I mean so much of the internal shit you as the player don't even see. all the addons we add are only realistically beneficial to the game, they don't change hl2 all too much, only add to what elements it should realistically have. I'm also not bringing up rogues to keep them or add them back in, when did I ever say that? I am using them as an example of things which were rapidly taken away from people, like your character limit idea, which seemed to have disappeared as I have stated the last 2 posts. Anyways, whatever you feel about this Diablo, not what I or the voters feel about it I guess. Either way I'll always be here helping TC for the better. I'm ending this discussion here unless I see fit to carry on with this thread. It was the most simple idea at a marketing strategy for population that could work, now this big ass discussion... I only ask this, what does anybody else feel about it anyways? They trust you too diablo, (Don't take this as an offensive thing, I know very well you did this with every intention of helping the server) need I remind you about that C08 forced map change, /blocked off shit that threw everybody off, you are right it wasn't the map per say, It was pretty harmless except for the fact that people didn't like the map really, and there was no debate on it, and it was blocked off like hell. but it sure was the confinement and conflict because of it, everything was rapidly ripped from people. You need to consider a certain degree of want in the community, people don't stay because they need good rp, they stay because they want it, and anything that can make it amazingly fun, and interesting.

3rd bottom line is, the outside of the house is what draws people in, maybe the interior is nice, but the outside is dirty looking, it can be reversed as well. For TC I'd say right now it's a fairly dirty exterior (C18, population, ranking) and an amazing interior. I am looking to make it an amazing beautiful place in both spots. The internal RP things are what keeps people yes, but also the things that they can want and actually vote to get into the server that make it even better are too, the ability for them to change how RP plays out is not really entirely in their hands, Wants like Maps, Addons, Plugins should be available for them as the people to want.

Chris10023 Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:51 am

Diablo0258 wrote:As for rouges, no. I am not letting rouges come back until everyone is off onto what ever community Bravo makes in the future. Rouges were something special at a time, because they were rare. Noob is the only person who should have had a rouge, because he is the only one who really used it correctly, even then I still didn't like rouges. Majorly off cannon.

So because we don't see a rogue in Half Life 2 means they don't exist? That's debatable, because we don't see any form of rank within the CCA for that matter nor divisions. The only part we know of the CCA is that people can enlist to it, so should we say ranks and divisions are off canon? I believe rogues exist in the HL2 lore, why not? it's possible.

And a map change will keep people, it can also bring in a lot of new people who could become regulars, when we first switched to City 45, we gained Super, Slash, Ineptbird, //Darkpossem\, Zaughi, Frankie Astro, Wowdah, Floridabum, Masey, Plexi, Racievo, Gerby, and Dewfan. They all joined and were regulars in City 45, most of them left in city 08 because of confinement, out of them, the ones who still come on are Dark, Super, Zaughi, Slash.

I have to agree with Holler.

**[Redacted]** Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:01 am

Colonel HollerHavoc wrote:Here we go again with the rogue talk again lol. I don't really think that rogues should cause so much trouble, I mean, for one they are not really impossibly uncannon. They could happen in the half life 2 universe. Honestly, of the millions of CCA units. At least one is going to crack. Maybe not at a high rank when brain washing is too high, but still. The brain doesn't work the same for everybody. Brainwashing doesn't erase memory, it blocks it. There are so many different circumstances for a Rogue unit to arise that I cannot name them all. But one thing I never really understood was, why are they the hugest problem ever? Yes they are a rare occurrence but they make sense.

People often associate them as these super men/women with super mega ultra survival power which they don't have. All they are is a CCA unit of whatever skill level their rank corresponds with, just not part of the UU anymore, that's it. Sure they may have training and such, but they are one person who is now acting on their own will, free of the UU. The CCA can track them down and they bring trouble with them. So my next question would be, why don't the CCA just kill them instead of complaining about how rogues are uncannon? If they could track them via bio-signal or something like that, why not just kill them? I think rogues make for an excellent element of RP. And I don't really think it would be impossible for them to happen, because nothing really is impossible. What people need to realize however which I realized after making this, is. You don't choose to rogue, you don't plan to rogue, the circumstances need to play out especially for you to rogue, just as they would for the unit ICLY. The only reason it causes problems OOCLY is jealousy, but that is just because they are stereo-typed as invincible, which they are not. The circumstances would have to play out perfectly for it to happen.

This is not really a rant more than it is an opinion based argument with some facts, I don't mean to have any biased opinions on any of what I have stated, it is just my take on rogues.

Watch this video as a representation of what I mean, you have a teacher, who is telling the class about this group called the wave, which represents strength with Discipline, action and community, calling it the wave. At first everybody is encouraged to abide by all of the rules and it even brings people rejected by the class together and unites them. But as people start to remember their own instinct as everybody thinks differently and reacts to different situations, some start to crack and oppress, and pretty much go rogue.

Teacher= UU
Oppressive Girl (Lorry or Whatever)= Pre-Rogue Unit

Crucial part is 19:29 up to about 24:00

Idk just my take on it guys, I'm pretty tired.

I realized later it was poor of me to write such an essay about Omega on something so uneasily acquired... I didn't really have my head fully rapped around the workings of rogues. One thing is for certain, not everybody should have them, and nobody should ever try or exploit/secretively rogue without a sufficient developmental reason.

I hate to bring them up, but since I feel chris is correct, here is what I said about them. They are an element people like to have in the game, but I feel that they should be very discrete, People have a low chance at getting them anyways, they should remain in the game, but have realistic stats. They were a really good element within TC, that had me and many others very interested in the diversity of RP. I never saw them as out of cannon and neither did a lot of us. The only reason they got out of hand, is because of infrastructure corrosion, doesn't mean we should take them out, don't eat me though, it's all an opinion, and a valid one at that.

**DIABLO258** Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 pm

Fuck it. I'm laying the law down. You guys clearly don't understand what I am saying.

We are not having a map change until we understand why people are not joining us currently. I don't give a shit if you have to give a questionnaire to new players. Figure out what would make them stay. And I don't mean by saying "Would the map I17 make you stay?" I am saying you ask "What about an HL2RP community do you enjoy the most, and if its not here, how can we achieve it?"

Do not suggest anything to them. Let them answer for you. If they do say "I want a new map" well then you have proof that people other than just long time regulars want a new map. I get that you think a new map is a good idea, I understand what you are saying, but I don't think at this time a new map is beneficial.

After doing some research on I17 I found there are about 20 other servers with that map. Only one of them at this point in time has more than 40 players. The rest are 0. The one with 40 players is LemonPunch. They figured their shit out, they know what to turn their RP into so people enter and like it. They started on places like C18, C45, and so forth.

All the others that have 0 players, they thought that if they just changed their map to I17 that maybe they would get those players as well. But unfortunately, it is not the map that gets people to stay. It is the RP and how it works over all. Looking at C18 on the other hand, its the same shit! One server with a fuck load of people, all the rest barely make it above 5, let alone make it out of 0. It is not the map we should focus on! Once we figure out that the map is our only problem, then we can change. Until that point, we have more important things to do. Sorry you guys, but that's the truth.

And maybe its just the time of day, so I will be checking the maps again later on to see if their is a larger difference. But honestly, I don't see one. The big brand servers have a ton of people regardless of the map. The ones that are not big, have no one because they are not like the big brands. Something is missing that they have, and the others don't. Currently, we are not a big brand. We need to find out what is so addicting in those bigger brands, we can implement something similar into TC, only THEN can we change maps.

Sorry, but I am not letting a map change take place until we are in the right.
How ever, your poll still counts. When the time comes that we do change maps, which who knows, could be soon, could be a long time, we will go to I17 unquestioned.
As for the time until that happens, I suggest working on a story for a map change. Something interesting, maybe we could pull off that "re-visiting C18" even I suggested like a year ago. But that would require some damn good story telling, so for now, lets work on TC. Forget about the maps. Start asking people what they want. Do not suggest anything. Just ask, what do you want to see in this community. And like I said, if people say they want a new map and I am wrong, then we will change. But until I see that it is C18 that is driving people away, I will not allow a map change.

EDIT: And please don't think I have something against I17. The map looks great. Huge. But great.

**Noobstrike** Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:12 pm

JESUS CHRIST is a nice man.

Wow all this writing and argueing and debating over a game my jibbity jesus I dont think ive seen this much debating since a MLP thread simulator video over who has a better plot applejoke or flutterflea.

SO OBVIOUSLY we have very two different takes on the future of TC. One wants a very neat and complex expansive shiny building with tons of neat features and crazy ideas, the other wants a solid foundation to stand on first that's sure and plain and simple so this shiny building doesn't fall down.

I personally do not totally side with either one of you, but I do lean towards a lot of what diablo has said.

C18 is as basic as it gets. We know the sidewalks and streets like the back of our hand. You can't make it bad. It's unbreakably simple. And I do think that we should perfect our rp skills in one place before jumping into the next complicated map. What we need right now is definitely not a new map. All people want is more more more more it seems. New addons, new maps, new characters, then they suck them dry, throw them away after a week, and ask for something bigger and better. We need a foundation first. We need to all be sure in ourselves as RP'ers, make our characters how we want them, start their stories from the ground up, and once everything that WE make is how we want, we can move somewhere else and adjust. I honestly preferred c45 (the original not the weird trap door full/canal one) because it was my home map at dead anarchy, but city 18 isn't bad.

Now to what holler said. That character limiting thing is a terrible idea. Horrible. Bad. RP is fun because it places us out of our normal boring human lives into a new world to see from a characters point of view, with a different personality, capabilities, and weaknesses. If you limit that to one or two, it's not as fun. You get stuck in the same viewpoint for too long without changing and it's not fun anymore. People do need variety to an extent, but they don't need to pull out a different CS:S gun every time they enter a fight.

And to rouges. They have been seen for the longest time as ominous all-seeing super powerful beings with infinite power and knowledge. At the time of Deadcherry and Zero, this was true. When cherry owned his server, zero could not be killed. Once he shared the positions with 4 other people, this idea died down a notch. But not totally. Now when your character is around for a very long time with tons of experience, they will obviously grow. Physically, mentally, in shooting, combat, speech, anything- they will become better. But the reason they were seen as 'Overpowered' I think is partially due to the simple object- the crossbow. The limited safe guarded weapon that everyone wanted to be the coolest kid on the block. Well that was intentional. The crossbow is incredibly overpowered and super accurate, and really only one or MAYBE two people should have it at a time at ALL in any community of characters. And the CCA should never have it. Ever. Unique resistance trademark creation. Now I'm not bragging or anything, but I think cherry passed on the torch of the crossbow to me because I was the only one at the time who could handle it. Phantom has not actually performed an RP-PK kill in the last year, and I think only once or twice total- not using the crossbow either. Rogues should have only ever been in the hands of very passive relaxed people who would rather develop the mind than their guns, and thats what me and cherry chose to do. Rogues should not be rushing into action, they should spend most of their time alone, hiding, and talking in dark corners where the combine can't reach them. If you choose to be a constant action seeking rogue, you should die very quickly. The crossbow is a token symbol of the resistance, but really is too powerful for actual RP. Literally when you shoot someones foot with it they die. You can't really /me with it. So it's obvious that so few were trusted with it. Rogues I think are very canon and possible, but the view of them is so altered. They are not action movie heroes. They hide and use their little CCA knowledge to develop things in secret. (So yeah the crossbow should still be limited, but it was a contributor to the 'overpowered' idea. In the hands of a smart passive person, it's not really overpowered. In the hands of an action seeking rambo-tard, ogodwereallscrewed.)but thats why we don't let that happen.

anyway yeah. all this debating. RP has become too complicated. like pokemon. it used to be GO PIKACHU *kills everything no problem* now its "I need to train this a certain way and feed it this and level it up to this before deleting this move to grow this stat" and thats how RP is now. RETURN THE BASICS. SHINY BUILDINGS DO NOT STAND WITH NOTHING UNDER THEM.

**[Redacted]** Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:28 pm

It's funny though because I don't even WANT the map change or the shiny building, I am suggesting it and that's it, basically, I'm saying (in summary form) we need rp obviously, (It's even FUNNIER because I was the one suggesting a million times in group chat that nobody was listening to all the aspects of rp we need to work on again, I even made that rules thread again) and we also have to consider a certain degree of want to go with our need. All it was was a simple marketing strategy, and the argument basically went nowhere after that, All I was originally opposed to was the character confinement idea, because I know what every single bit of the last confinement ~~rapidly stripping of things~~ did. Just look at the thread name and the key word "FUTURE".

**Jaquecz** Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:45 pm

I'm going to keep this short because massive walls of test = bad.

IF we are going to switch to industrial 17, First, take a look at our pop, and then take a look at the map. Since we aren't exactly the largest when it comes to pop, we should IC'ly say that I17 is currently "Under construction" and so we should block off a portion of the map completley until our pop gets significantly stronger, then as the average pop gets bigger and bigger, we can let more and more of the map become avaliable.

I'd still rather go with City23 or whatever it was called again, I17 has a small bit of performance issues.

MOAR SHIT:
I've noticed a large amount of rpers are really against combat rolling. So
Here:
I suggest we use this, if your not happy with it then make changes you see fit, but I just think we need extra P2L in our CombatRP.
http://www.maelstromgaming.net/index.php?topic=720.0

Theres also this 15 feet rule thing, where if your weapon is unholstered and a guy is rushing you with a melee weapon of any kind of certain type or even his fists [for whatever reason that would be] you wouldn't be able to unholster your weapon in time to shoot him before he smacks you in the face, or kicks you in the balls, whatever happens.

This may or may not improve population.

If anything a big boost to population would be to make citizen rp not boring, and i don't mean facebook simulator shop running tycoon electric boogaloo 2 vibration edition.
I mean they aren't as disconnected from rp as they are right now, making rebel actions and MPF actions effect the Citizens.
One really stupid cliche example is Combine take shit out on the citizens.
[inb4combinewanttokeepcitizensfromrebelling]
They'd be too scared too, way too scared, at least the majority of them would be too scared and some of the more ballsier ones may start having second thoughts.
A rebel cliche example is "CUM WITH US IF U WANT 2 LIVE," or maybe just giving them extra shit to make their lives easier, you know, smuggling?
There's also Propganda type of things, spray paint dem walls.

Could cause extra rp with the administrator, (Assuming he's ever rp'd ever again for anylonger than 20 minutes without being afk) Like, er, some repeating propaganda broadcasts. I'm assuming people here have pretty good writing and literature skills.
Other than noobstrike and a couple others who I forgot.

AH shit i made a wall of text.

**DIABLO258** Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:11 am

Then I think its settled. Lets put the arguing to an end.

<:: Citizen, final judgement has been made.

The map change is on hold. If we are to switch, it will be to I17. The only way for us to make this switch is when we all can agree that nothing is wrong with the way RP functions. Everyone should be satisfied to the extent at which nobody has complaints, other than ones about other people. Minor complaints may slip past, but it should be nothing serious.

------

As for Noob, I am glad you stepped in.

Noob gets it. My idea was just an observation for you to all look at. Even though character switching seems like a bad idea, its still a function within the Configuration settings. So clearly people use it. Clearly it has an effect on people, maybe I just happened to notice it a few days ago, maybe I did some research on it, maybe I found out a lot of servers have it. Though most are like us, its still an idea floating about. We need to make decisions on as many of these ideas as we can, so they do not arise and become problems later on. It wont matter what map we will be on, these problems will occur if we do not perfect them now.

TC died because of this. No one was happy because things were constantly changing trying to get a population. Finally everyone got tired of it. Well not everyone, but to many.

PS: To anyone who thinks I actually back the idea of character limiting, sorry, but it is not that great of an idea. I kinda tricked a lot of you, character switching is something that grabs attention because people go "WHAT?! NO!" or they just agree with me. But it was all a ploy to get you to notice that there are things out there to debate about, talk about, figure out, and just fix in general.

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